Skrupulatni czytelnicy forum wowtcg.com na pewno kojarzą wątek zatytułowany Edwin problem ... what Edwin problem ?, który doczekał się już (stan na 17 kwietnia 2012) 68 stron komentarzy ze strony graczy WoW TCG. Dla tych, którzy nie są w temacie chodzi o druk karty Edwin Van Cleef, której to cena sięga już spokojnie ponad 150$ za sztukę. Cena taka jest wynikiem kombinacji dwóch czynników:

1) karta jest bardzo dobra sama w sobie, dodatkowo nie mając żadnych restrykcji co do klasy, rasy, frakcji etc.
2) jest bardzo rzadka (niestety nie jestem w stanie na tę chwilę sobie przypomnieć na ile boksów przypada jedna jej sztuka)
Jakoże Edwin to jest fenomen tej karcianki (niestety w negatywnym tego słowa znaczeniu), a także może nawet na skalę ogólnokarciankową (niestety również nie mam dużego doświadczenia w TCG) zdecydowałem, że przeczytam (pobieżnie) cały wątek i postaram się przedstawić co ciekawsze jego kawałki. Zatem artykuł ten dedykuję tym, którzy nie lubią czytać (80% Polaków), tym którzy nie mają wolnego czasu oraz tym którzy zwyczajnie są leniwi.
Co do całości to nie ma tu jakiegoś konkretnego tematu. Są bluzgi, pomysły na odpowiedzi na Edwina, solucje jak zaradzić temu całemu bałaganowi i wiele innych. No to zaczynamy:
Why are people always saying stuff like this, when it's to further the argument that some card is OP?
Obviously that can't categorically be true, because then Carnage would categorically be a card. Obviously it's not.
Odpowiada Stu Wright:
Yes it can. You don't play carnage to kill a single ally. Any time you pay X resources to kill a single card which they spent less than X resource on you are at a disadvantage.
Threats are also better than answers so the answers need to be better in some way, either cheaper or doing many functions. Mazu'kon is still a good card even though Banish soul deals with it for half the cost.
And this is ignoring that there isn't any single card that deals with edwin for his cost or less anyway
- Jako podstawowy argument tego, że Edwin jest 'overpowered' podaje, że nie ma pojedynczej karty, która odpowiada na Edwina i zaraz jej koszt jest równy lub mniejszy. W innym przypadku ktoś mógłby podać Carnage jako przykład. Także przykłady np. Juggernaut nie są najlepsze bo ciągle zostają w stole te 2 tokeny, które mogą w kolejnej turze zamienić się w potwory przy pomocy Grand Crusader.
- 'Zagrożenia są lepsze niż odpowiedzi' - dosyć filozoficzne, ale to jedno z moich ulubionych stwierdzeń w TCG.
JDean330:
This is usually what happens when you have to deal with an untargetable. Its nothing new to people that have been around since Heroes dropped. There was a bitch of gnome that was a 2 drop that had elusive, stealth and untargetable. He was hard to deal with. The point of power cards is to have a win condition. Mazu'Kon does that.Edwin does that. Ice Barrier does that. Grand Crusader/Dagax does that. Dealing with Edwin is just as hard as dealing with a Mazu'kon if you arent a warlock. Be a good player, deal with it and stop complaining about the piece of cardboard. Ive had Edwins dropped on me and he has never stayed on the voard longer than one or two turns.
Odpowiada Stu Wright:
Be a good player, that is your advice? You suggest probably the worst answer anyone has suggested in this thread and you are telling other people to be better? Maybe rather than us being awful because there is no good answer it is you who is terrible because your answers are laughably bad.
You are just another random guy who suggests something that doesn't deal with Edwin and wonders why everyone else still thinks he is broken. Maybe you can win your local battlegrounds without Edwin but that counts for nothing.
- Jedna z wielu wypowiedzi Stu Wrighta, który sprowadza do parteru wielu zmyślnych 'wynalazców'.
Charles McArthur
At least for similar cards like Dethvir they were restricted to Undead heroes only and weren't ultra-epics.
There's a reason he costs $160+. It's not because all the players are overvaluing him. And it is a huge problem. Unfortunately, some members of my team are quitting the game because competitive decks cost too much to build now.
- Dowód na to, że siła Edwina tkwi również w tym, że jest on neutralem.
- Są osoby, które rezygnują z gry w WoWa, ponieważ sądzą, że granie bez nich na turniejach najwyższej rangi jest automatycznie strzałem w stopę. Zgadzam się z takim stwierdzeniem, niestety samemu Edwinów nie posiadając.
- Ciekawostka: Sam McArthur Edwinów nie posiada i z tego powodu też bardzo głośno narzeka na CZE ;-)
Stu
Just because you look for an answer to Edwin doesn't mean it exists. Pretty much all tier one decks run four copies of him. Whenever someone says this isn't true they either can't list tier one decks with him in or list unplayable piles.
Also there seems to be some strange idea that it is impossible to be unhappy with Edwin and complain about him, while at the same time building decks. And guess what I've found the best answer to Edwin is your ownEdwin.
- Odpowiedź jest prosta: Nie możesz pokonać Edwina to dołącz do niego ;-)
Complaining about things often does bring changes. If no one ever complain things would never change. Maybe you just suck it up when bad thing happen to you.
- Podpisuję się pod powyższym oboma ręcoma i nogoma. Niestety CZE dotychczas pozostaje głuche na głosy społeczności i pozostawia całą sprawę bez komentarza. IMHO bardzo nieładnie to z ich strony.
Mush
Well at least one of the players who have bought 4 Edwin thinks banning it is still reasonable, because he is the one suggesting it to you right now.
- Są jednak ludzie, którzy posiadają Edwiny i ciągle uważają że jego ban jest pomysłem dobrym :-)
McArthur
The point is they shouldn't print cards that are so powerful in the format and that simultaneously cost more than an iPad 3. I have friends quitting this game now because competitive decks are too expensive to build, and Edwin is the largest part of that. And killing or dealing with Edwin is completely irrelevant, since you still have to spend infinite $$ for your own Edwin if you want to play the most optimal competitive deck.
I'm not saying it's the fault of CZE's "design team", but it's someone at CZE's fault. Blaming it on the metamart is delusional. What do you expect them to do, set it to $40 and literally sell out on day 1? CZE didn't print enough of the card.
This was incredibly predictable. There were posts on these forums BEFORE edwin was officially released predicting it would be a $100 card because of its rarity. Blaming it on secondary vendors who set the price based on SUPPLY and absolving CZE who decided that supply is boneheaded.
tldr; it's a $160 because of CZE's supply decisions, not because of the "real devil" of the secondary market leaders.
Trebolution
I don't believe Magic has ever had a card this expensive in their standard format, and for that matter I don't think they've had one in their extended format either. And we also need to start saying playsets are now $700-$800, because that's their realistic value. Some website did a breakdown of the prices of the top 8 legacy decks from GP Indianapolis, and I think the most expensive one was $1000, which is quite a bit less than the approximate value of the current build of Ooga Booga Grand Crusader. Card availability is going to be a very very serious problem come NACC. There's a distinct possibility that people will be looking at closer to $1000 (maybe more?) for a playset of this card on-site in vegas, just because nobody will have them or be willing to part with them. Personally, I'm in a really tough spot as I don't have any Edwins, and there isn't a chance I'll be able to afford them by NACC. My plan is that hopefully someone will rent them out to me, and I don't even know what price I'll have to pay to do that...assuming that there is even someone who is willing to do that.
I'm still not sure how people can be on the other side of the argument saying that Edwin isn't a problem. There isn't a good answer to him in the format. Period. He should go in EVERY DECK. Any deck that doesn't run him (aside from maybe solo equipment decks) is running a sub-optimal list. I enjoyed playing constructed in this game originally, because it was fun, cheap, and skill-intensive. Each day I question if any of these qualities still apply.
- Bardzo fajny komentarz, chyba Andrew Trebinga. Każdy deck, który nie posiada Edwinów jest na starcie deckiem złożonym nieoptymalnie. Agree.
Belthazzar
Noone is interested in playing a chess game, where one couldnt afford a queen, so he runs 9th pawn.
- LOL
Dalton
27 of a possible 32 Edwin in core top 8 for St. Louis. At what point do you decide "wow, we really really messed up designing this set. Let's do something about it?." How can you possibly compete with Magic when your main format requires an $800 investment in 4 cards? This is honestly probably the worst design mistake in a TCG I've played since SW:CCG released operatives (that was 12 years ago and they were fixed within 1 tournament).
- Statystyka mówi sama za siebie. Cena niestety jeszcze bardziej.
Pyroglyphix
Printing a card that makes him less playable just means everyone will need to include that card in their decks... which is nearly as bad as everyone feeling they need to include Edwin in their deck to be able to compete.
Banning him is also an idea I'm quite against, something I love about this game is that there is no banned/restricted list.
I think that making him a prize is a step in the right direction, but one that's going to have some backlash. While it does add more cards to the available market, the bigger problem is that typically, the players winning the prize will be the ones who have already invested in a playset of the card, if he's a prize for anything but draft/sealed formats.
Something along the lines of a Spectral Safari would be cool, as well as making him a random insert in the next wave of class decks.
- Pomysły na to jak poradzić sobie z problemem Edwina. CZE dając Edwiny za TOP96 EUCC daje znaki, że próbuje coś robić, ale to chyba zdecydowanie za mało. Ktoś rzucił pomysł aby dawać Edwiny za TOPileśtam Realmów. Pomysł nienajgorszy, ale chyba nie wypalił.
Dalton
You can either fix the supply (print more) or fix the demand (ban him, print a card that makes him significantly less playable).
Odpowiedź od Djww19
Either way is acidic to the game.
If they print more, they screw the vendors and all the players who already bought him, thus causing less trust in CZE, and people will be less likely to buy things upon release.
If they ban him, they turn a $175+ piece of cardboard into pennies overnight. This causes the same problem as printing more. Outside of core, Edwin isn't devastating. Honestly, I'd play Nathanos over him, given the chance.
If they print something that makes him less playable, power creep steps in, and people will need an answer to X, then an answer to Y (which was made to counter X), then they need an answer to Z (which was made to counter Y). This continues ad infinitum until the game dies, which judging from past TCG's (LoTR, Star Wars (Decipher), Dragonball Z/GT, Spellfire, VS, UFS [to name a few]) is a relatively short delay.
- Wydrukowanie odpowiedzi na Edwina, może spowodować upadek karcianki poprzez tzw. power creep (z Wikipedii: gradual unbalancing of a game due to successive releases of new content)
W tym miejscu zatrzymałem się, tj. na 38 stronie forum wowtcg.com. Ciąg dalszy nastąpi, a więc stay tuned!
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